Curse

eudas · Jun 14, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

the biggest argument against fast leveling is that it detracts from the amount of time that players (old *or* new) have to learn how to play their class properly [1].

as an observation: in general, from what i've seen on these forums, the ones that love the fast leveling are those who are either a) ADHD types who bought the game but don't have the patience to work through another prophecies-length campaign or b) PVPers who just want to get their PVE char thru the campaign and "Skip to the End" to go PVP with it. That's a generalization, yes, but i think as generalizations go it's not too "out there".

fast leveling doesn't affect PVP players much at all, but it does affect the PVE game greatly, as the quality of players in groups becomes deteriorated.

[1] this involves acquiring and trying out new skills, testing new builds and tweaking them, learning one's overall role as defined by the overall design of the class, and learning how one's overall role changes as modified by the various builds one uses.

eudas

eudas · Jun 14, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus_thom

Why is anet making it so easy for everyone to level up,

in ch2, the reason is because 90% of the content they developed from the city (kaineng center) onward was developed for clvl20 characters. Bear in mind that they had to develop areas that were challenging for *all* players, and that there would not only be massive amounts of new characters leveling up from 1 to 20 in Cantha but also massive amounts of old Tyrian clvl20 characters coming over directly from Lion's Arch to Kaineng Center.

So all content from that point onward needs to be equal -- if you develop it to be appropriate for low level characters, then it's too easy for the high levels and will be romped through right away by high levels helping out low levels through the areas that were *supposed* to be challenging but now aren't. If you develop it to be for L20 chars, then now you have the challenge of getting the low level characters up to L20 quickly so that they don't get romped on mercilessly when they step off the island onto the mainland.

Guess which option they chose.

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if people have a problem with having to spend time leveling up they were obviously rushing through the game. For me leveling my character gave satisfaction knowing that I worked my way up to get stronger. Why does everyone need to get to lv 20 so fast?

Various reasons -- I won't go into it, but suffice to say that while I don't necessarily agree with every reason to level quickly, that there are a few, and some of them are legitimate. Not everyone wants to play slowly through Baldur's Gate, solving every side quest, for 3 months.

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I dont mind the current lv cap seing that any increasement would bring unfairness to the game.

I agree, and that point is fairly well established and agreed upon widely already. Let's move on.

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But it makes me wonder is ther.e any point to leveling up if you can do so, so fast. In Pvp it is understandable.

It depends upon your goals. Skill Hunting is one reason to level up quickly -- you run out of skill points relatively quickly

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Basically all that has occured now is that people may be lv 20 but they dont have the exp to back it up,

That's an unfortunate side effect, and one that should be examined as regards Pacing for future chapters, but isn't one that is "fixable" in ch2. ch2 was designed to have a fast pace, and it does have one. if you don't like a fast pace, then that's unfortunate, but there's no way to change that fundamental part of ch2's design at this point in time. the only thing to do is submit feedback to anet about the pacing of ch2 and let them know that you would appreciate a slower pacing in future expansions.

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meaning obtaining exp after lv 20 is a useless cause.

absolutely incorrect. yes, it is useless in terms of hp gain and attr point gain. but, again, it is useful to those who need additional skill points.

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Maybe a TITLE for exp,

Dumbest idea ever.
I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out why (it should be obvious).

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and a actual use for that title such as going to a unreachable outpost would help to Issolate players that have worked hard to be given a chance not to have to socailise with inexperienced 10 year olds.

We already have something like this: it's called "instanced zones". Grab your henchies, go out in a zone, and play in blissful silence.

There's also the ability to turn Local/Trade channels off, which again, keeps you in blissful silence *even when surrounded by those annoying 10 year olds*.

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Basically guild wars is bending down and letting the casual gamers be able to access just as much as people that have worked for it. Is there actually a point to being a exp player in pve anymore?

As much as there ever was -- the joy of being good, and knowing it, and being able to impress other players with your skill. What do you want, a cookie?

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It seems everything is handfend to players this is proven by skills being obtained easier and the idea of being able to level faster.

Skills aren't being obtained easier. You still have to purchase them (ch2), or quest for them (ch1). The quests that give skill points are there in ch2 *because* of the lack of ch1-style skill quests in ch2.

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Maybe exp could be another way to unlock skills,

It is, when you get exp, you get another skill point. You use the skill point + some money to purchase a skill from a skill trainer.

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because it does not really play much of a role in guild wars anymore,

You're assuming that it did in the first place. GW was designed from the ground up to de-emphasize importance of xp, leveling, and grinding. In some ways it was successful.

Your primary complaint seems to be about *pacing*, not about xp per se. Pacing in ch1 was much slower, which meant things took longer, which kept your eye on the xp meter a bit longer because it took more play and time to get to level 2. that's all. in ch2, you level faster, so you really spend less total time looking at the xp bar, eagerly awaiting that "next level". That's Pacing. The pacing is faster in ch2 -- it has nothing to do per se with experience being useful or useless.

It's all about perception.

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even getting skills could be made harder not easier seing its said to play the role of character develpmont.

let's be frank with ourselves -- the end goal of the game for anet/ncsoft is to get people to move on to pvp in the end, not to play pve forever. they want to attract people with pve, and provide a good game for them to enjoy while they're there, but the end goal is to get people to move to pvp, because pvp has the highest chance of ensuring long term addiction to the game.

by way of example, compare how long half-life (the original one) sold simply because of Counterstrike. millions and millions of copies, *years* after the game itself came out. that's the goal.

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Anet when Capping you give us 5000 exp for capping a elite skill. We are already on lv 20 whats the point?

capture 3 elites, and you've gained enough xp for another skill point, which lets you capture 1 more elite. skill capping elites basically feeds itself. which, coincidentally, there's a title for. imagine that!

basically, they made it so people don't have to grind (as much) to get the skill hunter title, even for those older characters who were low on skill points.

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Make exp usefull!!!!!

it is... to skill hunters. well, and for getting rid of DP. (Xp scrolls = poor man's candy canes...)

i think you're whining alot for nothing.

eudas

dreamhunk · Jun 15, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

EDITED: You don't need to quote his entire post when it's really long like that.

I agree with you for the must of your ideas but i bought this game for rpg! there is people who don't care to pvp. So anet should not over look over look the rpg!

The core of rpg's is character develpmont

At the core of gw is rpg! lets not for get that.

eternal pho · Jun 15, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

.. xp make skill points.. skill points means you can buy skills... brought skills are unlocked for pvp

You'll have more skill points then money..whats the point of more skill points lmao.

Avarre · Jun 15, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

1) I have 3/693 skill points, and lots of cash. <3 Xp. Need more points (I should really start farming again..)

2) Retroactive xp on skill caps please, that's 450k xp I could have gotten if the change had been there then. 30 points.

TopGun · Jun 15, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

absolutely incorrect. yes, it is useless in terms of hp gain and attr point gain. but, again, it is useful to those who need additional skill points.

Unfortunately, acquiring skill points was made a lot easier, and making money made a bit harder. This was kind of dumb, because now I know people with 100+ skill points, and not 100 plat. So, leveling up for skill points is also a bit...

...well, yeah, it's useless.

Vahn Roi · Jun 15, 2006, 02:47 AM // 02:47

I don't think it's money that is harder to make, I think inflation is just killing the value of gold.

lg5000 · Jun 15, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by eternal pho

You'll have more skill points then money..whats the point of more skill points lmao.

No, I make about 1k per skill point.. actually, more like 2-4k, but a minimum of 1k.. at lvl20. If I have more skill points than money (and I do) its because some of the money gets spend on luxury items such as 15k armor.

Fyre Brand · Jun 15, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

EDITED: You don't need to quote his entire post when it's really long like that.

I like that eudas split the quotes up and addressed points individually so speak for yourself. And I think eudas summed it up very nicely!

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I agree with you for the must of your ideas but i bought this game for rpg! there is people who don't care to pvp. So anet should not over look over look the rpg!

The core of rpg's is character develpmont

At the core of gw is rpg! lets not for get that.

The game was never really marketed as an RPG. I can't remember reading anywhere where the core of Guild Wars is RPG. And again your view doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's view is the same. I don't see role playing as character development in terms of having a better level than other people. My characters (and most of my guild mates) like to rp at different levels. We chronicle our adventures and regale them from time to time. To me role playing is about adventuring not about having a L33T status that makes my developed character cooler than others. I love RP centered games, but this game is centered on PvP match style.

@OP ~ I get the impression the OP wants recognition for achievements and is used to recieving that by having a higher level than the "casual gamer". There are titles in the game to provide a sense of achievement. So if you're really interested in RP then go RP and stop whining about not having something to separate yourself from the commoner.

Shred Dread · Jun 15, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

I love the fact that there's a lvl 20 cap. I (am embarrassed to admit) i used to play RuneScape, where the max lvl was 121 i believe. There were always newer players, and higher level players, and the higher level players were always calling lower level players noobs, nevermind the fact it took a year of grind to gain a few levels. In Guild Wars, players prove themselves by skill, as the game advertises, rather than by showing that they have the most patience for grind.

Also, people seem to believe that if you are level 20 then you should be an expert player, and that the game makes it too easy to get to level 20, even for incompetent players.

As I have heard on some other thread a long time ago, the game really only begins when you're level 20 (especially in Prophecies). The most challenging and entertaining content only comes along around that point in a character's development. Also, once a player is lvl 20, he/she has the chance to be on equal footing with other players. Instead of concentrating on leveling up, the player now trains through making and improving skill builds, through armor and rune combos, and through higher level activites that prepare the player. Anet really did make the game about skill, rather than levels.

ubermancer · Jun 15, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Your experience in Guild Wars is independent of the 'experience total' bar featured in the Hero window.

markus_thom · Jun 15, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Lol I'll have to go re edit alot of what I first posted, first off Eudas you have made some good points, and the fact you made the effort to post when I had only half a clue of what I was talking about is respected.

The whole level up system was from retro rpgs and it got boring because it was the same formular which many types of games used over and over.

What Im trying to state is that guild wars claims itself to be a mmorpg and instead of focusing on leveling up, skills were ment to play a major role in your character develepmont. Alot of people have been complaining about it for a while, I Like pvp I like how it effects pve but I dont like how it dominates the pve of guild wars.

Alot of you guys have brought up the point that gaining exp ISNT skill related and I agree, the thing is it can be made more skill related then it already is. 55 hp MONK which is ment to be a support character can farm by itself in many areas of gw all it tells me is that it proves and shows that anet are not thinking about monster spawns in pve and certain characters taking full advanatge of it.

Simple solution change exp values, or fix or make other core proffesions more usefull in pve because it seems to me that not much effort is being put into making certain classes as usefull as the stupid wammor or elem or say monk in pve.

You guys are figuring that exp is made by constant mindless farming or questing in which some people enjoy others do not, this is more time consumption then actuall skill. The exp give out rate is unbalanced and is basically measured off the higher the level of monster, if they changed the exp to actually match the skill involved and actually gave proper exp values based of the challenge it could help, and would stop troll farming to gain exp like you mentioned before.

So your trying to tell me that the actual meaning to pve is just something to do whilst you go on your merry way capping your skills. Many unrewarding quest after quest that award you with exp that is used to unlock skills, if you havent noticed people have plenty of unspent skill points to buy skills.

There is not much character building in the pve side of it at all, just as u guys put it a reason to cap skills for pvp.

eudas · Jun 15, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

EDITED: You don't need to quote his entire post when it's really long like that.

I agree with you for the must of your ideas but i bought this game for rpg! there is people who don't care to pvp. So anet should not over look over look the rpg!

The core of rpg's is character develpmont

At the core of gw is rpg! lets not for get that.

dreamhunk, we've had this argument before on other threads. let's not reproduce it here.

you bought GW for a "pure" rpg experience. the problem is, GW is not a "pure" RPG -- it is a CORPG, and that means a 50% PVE front-end to the game with a 50% PVP backend to the game.

People who are mad that it's not 100% "pure" RPG/PVE weren't paying attention when they bought the game.

eudas

eudas · Jun 15, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

the character building portion is all in what skills you select. if you want to develop your character then you need to acquire more skills. this involves purchasing skills, which in turn eventually means acquiring more exp. so exp isn't useless because it helps you "develop" your character... what's the problem here, again?...

eudas

frickett · Jun 15, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Yeah I think that leveling your character, and getting used to the dynamic of the class combination is important. I don't think you get that understanding as quickly as you get to the level cap. For me a game is as much about the journey as it is about the destination. However I think a-net wants us all to be level 20 as quickly as possible. I dont know if this is because they want us to be pvping, or if it is just to balance everyone out. I miss the process of working to be level 20.

KamikazeChicken · Jun 15, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

I have no objection to Factions being PvP focused.

I know too many people who would say that Factions is entirely PvE focused. Looking at the actual content added, very little was directed toward PvP. :\

Loviatar · Jun 15, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by frickett

However I think a-net wants us all to be level 20 as quickly as possible. I dont know if this is because they want us to be pvping, or if it is just to balance everyone out. I miss the process of working to be level 20.

this is one i can honestly answer .

chapter 1 gives a much slower level up.

people who have chapter 1 have done the leveling and want level 20 content waiting for their chapter 1 characters to experience in chapter 2.

Anet cant put enough time into a truly long slow level up like chapter 1 at the same time giving all those level 20 people jumping from chapter 1 a full game as well..

chapter 3 will have as fast (or faster) leveling as they will be drawing on 2 chapters worth of level 20 players

MSecorsky · Jun 15, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

I know too many people who would say that Factions is entirely PvE focused. Looking at the actual content added, very little was directed toward PvP. :\

It certainly appears that way on the surface... but then why is this PvEr having to force himself back to the PvE side of things? For not adding much PvP, what they did add is damned addictive.